full

Episode 421 - TikTok

Topics:

00:00 Welcome to the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove Podcast

00:42 Introducing the Team and Today's Hot Topics

04:31 Local Government Elections: A Personal Insight

07:23 Gratitude Segment: What We're Thankful For

09:10 The Big Ideas for a Better Australia Conference

10:30 Long COVID: Unpacking the Facts and Myths

17:47 Gina Reinhart's Government Handouts Controversy

24:34 Australia's GST Distribution Debate

28:26 Generational Ideological Divides: A Closer Look

3:43 Australia's Role in Global Affairs: Public Opinion

37:39 The Pharmacy Guild and Prescription Changes

38:25 Economist's Critique on the State of Economics

39:30 Unveiling the Power Dynamics in Economics

41:17 The Controversial Life of Angus Deaton

41:39 Economics: A Dark Art or a Science?

42:17 The Global Impact of Corporate Giants

42:55 Protectionism vs. Free Trade: A Global Debate

55:11 The TikTok Controversy: Data Privacy and National

Security

01:00:18 Deciphering the Myths and Facts About TikTok

01:12:34 The Global Perspective on Social Media and Data

Privacy

01:23:44 Reflecting on the

Podcast and Upcoming Topics

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Transcript
Trevor:

Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over

Trevor:

time, evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

Trevor:

But today, we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that

Trevor:

gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss the

Trevor:

current events of their city, their country, and their world at large.

Trevor:

Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

Trevor:

Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

Yes, hello and welcome dear listener.

Trevor:

Episode 421 of this little podcast.

Trevor:

As we sit on, oh, we stand up on a mound, look around as meerkats and

Trevor:

Check out what's going on in the world.

Trevor:

I'm Trevor, aka The Iron Fist with us nearly as always.

Trevor:

The Velvet Glove, Scott, you're with us this

Scott:

week.

Scott:

I'm here with you, Trevor.

Scott:

Yes, I do apologize for last week.

Scott:

I completely slipped my mind.

Trevor:

No problem whatsoever.

Trevor:

And Joe, the tech guy.

Trevor:

How are you, Joe?

Trevor:

Good.

Trevor:

Very good.

Trevor:

If you're in the chat room, say hello, Watley's already there,

Trevor:

redheaded Watley, as we now know.

Trevor:

yeah.

Trevor:

So what's on the agenda?

Trevor:

We're going to talk a little bit about Australian news.

Trevor:

So a bit about long COVID, what the sort of chief medical officer

Trevor:

from Queensland had to say.

Trevor:

Gina Reinhart getting some free money from the government, GST carve

Trevor:

up, ideological gender differences, a little bit on essential pole.

Trevor:

A little bit about the Pharmacy Guild, a bit about economics and

Trevor:

economists sort of acknowledging they don't know what they're doing.

Trevor:

And then I really want to have a good chat about TikTok and the proposed ban in the

Trevor:

United States and what is that all about.

Trevor:

You guys been following that one at all independently or not really?

Scott:

I did hear about podcast the other day that I was listening to and I just

Scott:

think to myself, I don't understand, I don't, I don't use TikTok or anything like

Scott:

that so I couldn't tell you what the beat up's about but it's one of those things

Scott:

I just think to myself that the Yanks are actually Looking at something they're

Scott:

saying the Chinese own this, therefore the Chinese are out here polluting our

Scott:

political system, so I would have thought that given that Russia has already

Scott:

influenced the American elections using Facebook and everything else, that that

Scott:

would be enough for, that would be enough for them to say, okay, this is just a

Scott:

new little threat that we've got to deal with on our, on our horizon, rather than

Scott:

actually going, you know, banning it.

Scott:

And then it was even more ridiculous.

Scott:

Like when that, when the head of TikTok was in America and that sort

Scott:

of stuff, he appeared before the U.

Scott:

S.

Scott:

Senate and they said, oh, you're a member of the Chinese Communist Party.

Scott:

He says, I'm Singaporean.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

And he said, well, have you ever fought with a PLA?

Scott:

He says, I'm Singaporean.

Scott:

You know, they just wouldn't get it through their thick skulls

Scott:

that just because he's yellow doesn't mean that he's Chinese.

Trevor:

You know, they

Scott:

are so bloody blinking over there, aren't they?

Trevor:

Did you think to yourself, maybe this whole security threat is a complete

Trevor:

beat up, and there is no security threat?

Scott:

Absolutely I did, because I thought to myself that, you know,

Scott:

TikTok is something that I think that they limit how long you can

Scott:

actually say a video for, do you?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Yeah,

Joe:

so the rule short, it's basically death by attention span.

Trevor:

Yes, it's got an excellent algorithm that's got people sucked in.

Trevor:

Cooked for hours at a time.

Trevor:

Yes, I've never used it but that's my understanding.

Trevor:

It should,

Joe:

it should be banned just because it's so awful,

Trevor:

not because of it won't exist.

Trevor:

Yeah, well we're going to get into TikTok and examine what

Trevor:

exactly is going on there.

Trevor:

So you dear listener, the next time you're at a dinner party, And the topic

Trevor:

of the TikTok band comes up, you will be the most informed person in the room

Trevor:

by being an IFVG listener, which I guess you'll just be quite used to that status.

Trevor:

I like to think our listeners are the know it alls when they're at these

Trevor:

social events and, you wouldn't have thought so, yeah, hopefully they

Trevor:

aren't, so anyway, that's on the agenda.

Trevor:

Maybe we'll talk about Gaza and what's going on there at the same time.

Trevor:

sorry.

Trevor:

gentlemen, did you vote in the, in the local government election?

Trevor:

Yes,

Scott:

I did.

Scott:

And I helped count the votes on Saturday night.

Scott:

I'm going back for the next three days to also count.

Scott:

I'm going down to We've got a complicated system up here.

Scott:

We don't have divisions or anything like that.

Scott:

They're all just Councillors that are elected for the whole

Scott:

area and you've got 10 of them.

Scott:

So what you've got to do is you've got to, you've got to

Scott:

choose 10 on your ballot paper.

Scott:

And there were 29 that were running.

Scott:

So you choose 10.

Scott:

So what you do is you go through and you've got to actually do

Scott:

this bloody complicated voting counting and all that sort of stuff.

Scott:

When you.

Scott:

They attach them to a clipboard so that they are all on exactly the same side,

Scott:

same runs and that sort of stuff, and then you run a ruler down, you count

Scott:

the first lot, and you say, well, they haven't got any votes, the next lot's

Scott:

got two votes, and then you go down, they've got three votes, and they've got

Scott:

five and everything else, you get down until you do that across, 60 or 80, 000

Trevor:

people.

Trevor:

Wow.

Trevor:

And were you there just as a volunteer?

Trevor:

Well, you were doing part time work sort of thing.

Trevor:

I was getting paid for it.

Trevor:

Yep.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Sounds complicated.

Trevor:

I tried to.

Scott:

Well, I was, I was only just, I was just sorting them out into informal

Scott:

and informal votes and that sort of stuff.

Scott:

Then we had to put rubber bands around them in Baxter's 50.

Scott:

So that's just getting ready for, ready for this complicated

Scott:

count process, which is.

Scott:

Already started, but they rang me up this afternoon and said, can

Scott:

I work for the next three days?

Scott:

I said,

Trevor:

yes, I can.

Trevor:

Yeah, that's good.

Trevor:

Well, by the way, dear listener, if you don't want to listen to our

Trevor:

chit chat about our lives, then look at the chapters and fast forward

Trevor:

to the meaty bits, but we'll just continue with a little chit chat here.

Trevor:

exactly.

Trevor:

Cause you know, I would

Scott:

have thought that our, I would have thought that our listeners would

Scott:

love us enough to actually want to know what's happening in our personal

Trevor:

lives.

Trevor:

You just never know.

Trevor:

I tried, I tried to vote down the Gold Coast.

Trevor:

Yeah,

Scott:

and you can't because you're outside of your

Trevor:

local area.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

I didn't, I didn't know that for local council elections, that you

Trevor:

couldn't, I'm so used to doing it for state and federal, just vote anywhere.

Trevor:

Walked in and they said, there's a piece of paper over there, just

Trevor:

write down your name and address and why you couldn't vote, because, and

Trevor:

yeah, in this day and age, didn't have the technology to allow somebody

Trevor:

from Brisbane to vote in the council election if they're in the Gold Coast.

Trevor:

I thought that was Yeah, I know.

Scott:

I thought it was a little bit ridiculous too.

Scott:

I got done with that in Rockhampton when I got, I was living there

Scott:

the first time and everything else when there was a council election.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Hmm.

Scott:

And I went down and I said, look, I haven't changed my

Scott:

voting, voting address yet.

Scott:

I'm still registered in Brisbane.

Scott:

They said, well, you can't vote.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

It just didn't have the paperwork for it.

Trevor:

Exactly.

Trevor:

All right.

Trevor:

what are we grateful for?

Trevor:

I'm grateful for Squash TV, dear listener.

Trevor:

Squash TV?

Trevor:

Yes, I play a lot of squash.

Trevor:

It keeps me, it's a fantastic sport.

Trevor:

If you're looking for a sport that takes your mind off things, keeps you

Trevor:

fit and just the greatest game of all.

Trevor:

when I, well I signed up to a Squash TV subscription maybe four or five years

Trevor:

ago and I'm totally addicted to it.

Trevor:

I don't watch any football or any cricket or any regular.

Trevor:

Sport and all on TV, but I watch a lot of squash TV.

Trevor:

So that's what I'm grateful for.

Trevor:

You guys grateful for anything?

Scott:

Well, I'm grateful for my four of my one, two, three, four, five

Scott:

subscription television channels that I've got so No, I'm also I am also

Scott:

grateful that I am Progressing in my, application for a financial controller's

Scott:

job up here, which would be really good if

Trevor:

I get that, so anyway.

Trevor:

Excellent.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Joe, anything?

Trevor:

Just an ungrateful bastard.

Joe:

I'm gonna say, Apple Photos.

Trevor:

Apple Photos?

Trevor:

Yeah,

Joe:

I scanned a thousand photos Mum's place, or rather

Joe:

I had them scanned for me.

Joe:

And I am slowly going through, cropping them, and, Setting the black and

Joe:

white color balance and removing all the finger marks, stains and various

Joe:

detritus and trying to get some semblance of them so that at least

Joe:

they're archived and I've got some notes of them, before mum is no longer

Joe:

around to tell me who these people are.

Trevor:

So Apple Photos is just a, is just, Is that just the photos that's

Trevor:

on your phone, Apple Photos, is it?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Right, okay.

Trevor:

And it's also

Joe:

on my laptop.

Trevor:

Very good.

Trevor:

Right, okay.

Trevor:

Well, the other thing I'm grateful for is I didn't have to go to the triple

Trevor:

conference, Joe, that you told me about.

Trevor:

So, dear listener, there was a conference down in Albury called

Trevor:

Big Ideas for a Better Australia.

Trevor:

Joe sent it to me and said I should check it out.

Trevor:

And, I could have joined hundreds of like minded locals, hundreds more from around

Trevor:

Australia, as they brought together the best minds and best speakers, as offering

Trevor:

the best ideas for a better Australia.

Trevor:

And they had three conferences over three days.

Trevor:

And, on the Friday it was Freedman Friday.

Trevor:

What is freedom?

Trevor:

Why is it being eroded and how do we get it back?

Trevor:

Australia's premier libertarian conference.

Trevor:

That was on the Friday.

Trevor:

On the Saturday we had Church and State Saturday.

Trevor:

We cannot serve two masters.

Trevor:

What should believers do when the government claims to be God?

Trevor:

And then, finishing off on Sunday was Net Zero Gala Dinner.

Trevor:

Say no to Net Zero at the gala launch of this funny but serious campaign.

Trevor:

How will you say, net?

Trevor:

I think they got, about between 50 and 100 people, mostly over 70, Joe.

Trevor:

And, I don't think it was much of a success, that conference, but Thanks

Trevor:

for the Yes, thanks for the link.

Trevor:

Glad I didn't have to go.

Trevor:

Long COVID.

Trevor:

Article came out, or news reports came out, about the Queensland Chief

Trevor:

Health Officer asked for the term Long COVID to be scrapped as new research

Trevor:

suggests that it's no more sinister than the long term effects of the flu.

Trevor:

So apparently Queensland Health did research of 5, 000 Australians

Trevor:

and found the lasting effects of infection from seasonal flu

Trevor:

and other respiratory illnesses.

Trevor:

It was about the same for people infected with COVID.

Trevor:

And he says, just using that term, Long COVID caused unnecessary fear.

Trevor:

Was that surprising to you guys that he would come out and say that?

Trevor:

No, I

Joe:

mean, we've known for a couple of years that Long COVID is probably

Joe:

a post viral syndrome the same as lots of others like ME, CFS, Fibromyalgia,

Joe:

there's a whole load of basket case diagnoses that are almost certainly.

Joe:

The immune system overreacting to a viral infection.

Joe:

Hmm.

Joe:

The advantage of long COVID is, one, it's catchy, it's got people's attention,

Joe:

and two, the fact that there are so many cases of it, it's now getting

Joe:

focus on post viral syndrome as a whole.

Joe:

So I think we need to be recognizing that It's not a standalone disease.

Joe:

It's, it's something that's around that has just gone unnoticed and uncared about.

Joe:

And hopefully we'll get a

Trevor:

lot

Joe:

more research because more people are affected by this.

Trevor:

If you just read the headline and the first few paragraphs, you

Trevor:

would get the impression, Oh, they're saying on COVID isn't a thing.

Trevor:

But when you read into it, what they're saying is, Long covid is a thing, but

Trevor:

it's the same as, other respiratory viruses and illnesses and that it

Trevor:

does exist and it's just exists with things that are not covid as well.

Trevor:

So over 16% of respondents reported ongoing symptoms a year later,

Trevor:

and 3.6% reported moderate to severe functional impairment.

Trevor:

So he's saying that is a thing, it just happens with other virus

Trevor:

respiratory illnesses as well.

Trevor:

And, and the other thing that came up in that was that, perhaps Australia

Trevor:

overall had low rates of long COVID because we were mostly vaccinated and

Trevor:

were then exposed to the Omicron variant, which seemed to have less, long COVID.

Trevor:

side effects than the earlier COVID 19 variants.

Trevor:

So that might mean that Queensland and Australia is different too.

Trevor:

Other countries who had the earlier versions that had more

Trevor:

evidence of long COVID, perhaps.

Trevor:

I think that's probably

Scott:

right, because, you know, I first heard about long COVID

Scott:

when I was listening to the Dr.

Scott:

Norman Schwarzkopf.

Scott:

I can't even

Trevor:

remember what he's Yeah, I know the guy you mean, yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah,

Scott:

Dr.

Scott:

Norman, no, Dr.

Scott:

Norman Swan.

Scott:

I was thinking Norman Schwarzkopf, that was the general that, kicked Saddam's ass.

Scott:

Anyway, anyway, And I just heard long COVID then, and that scared

Scott:

the living shit out of me.

Scott:

It did scare me, so I can actually understand where they're

Scott:

saying that it leads to alarm.

Scott:

It certainly led to the alarm on mine, you know, because I thought to

Scott:

myself, if I get this, I'm going to end up with long COVID for months.

Scott:

But it turned out, you know, I got it.

Scott:

It was over it in two days.

Scott:

And then it was only until the next Saturday that I started getting it.

Scott:

I started testing negative so then I could go outside again.

Trevor:

No doubt though, you'll run into people, dear listener, who'll say, Oh,

Trevor:

health guy said long COVID's not a thing.

Trevor:

And that's not what he said.

Trevor:

Not the case, yes.

Trevor:

Just got to read these things.

Trevor:

There's nuance in there.

Trevor:

And there's a few interplaying ideas and concepts that you

Trevor:

have to get to grip with.

Trevor:

So,

Joe:

I remember arguing about the seasonal vaccine.

Joe:

people saying, Oh, you know, I always get flu from it, which is a load of rubbish.

Joe:

but also, Oh, you know, flu is not that bad.

Joe:

It's like, if you've never had flu, you'll think it's not that bad.

Joe:

If you've ever, if you've ever really had flu, I was as a 20 year old in

Joe:

bed for three weeks, unable to move.

Joe:

and it doesn't surprise me that yeah, 16 percent of people who've had real

Joe:

flu are left with long term effects.

Joe:

and I think that, that needs to be the takeaway, not that long COVID

Joe:

doesn't exist, that all of these diseases can cause long term effects

Joe:

in a subset of the population, and we need to be doing more to help them.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

Yeah, there's just a classic example where the story isn't straightforward.

Trevor:

It requires the interplay of a few different facts to get to the real issue.

Trevor:

And I was just looking on some of my friend's Facebook page the other day

Trevor:

where there was Anti climate change people commenting and it just struck me

Trevor:

that they just were incapable of holding several concepts and ideas and interplays

Trevor:

together, you know, what, how come we've got so much snow in winter and, and,

Trevor:

other things we're, we're, we're, we're Okay, it's because the extra moisture in

Trevor:

the air and the polar vortex is breaking down because of climate change and just

Trevor:

a whole bunch of, of things where people just need to know a number of different

Trevor:

ideas and how they interact with each other in order to get to the truth.

Trevor:

Things aren't always just simple.

Trevor:

Straightforward answers, and I think people really crave for that.

Trevor:

They want the simple, straightforward answer.

Trevor:

There's,

Joe:

so, Earth has an incredibly moderate temperature range

Joe:

between the poles and the equator.

Joe:

Because there's something, there's basically a water flow

Joe:

around that moves warm water from the equator up to the poles.

Joe:

and there is a fear that if the polar ice caps melt, that

Joe:

water flow will cease to exist.

Joe:

And that we will get very, very cold winters, certainly in Northern Europe,

Joe:

because Northern Europe is much warmer than the equivalent latitude in, in the U.

Joe:

S.

Joe:

East Coast U.

Joe:

S.

Joe:

Basically, the U.

Joe:

K.

Joe:

is about the same latitude as, Newfoundland.

Joe:

So you'd expect a similar climate there.

Joe:

and, yes, if you get global warming, it melts the ice caps, which interferes

Joe:

with the salinity of the sea.

Joe:

Which stops this movement of seawater around, which stops the, the Gulf

Trevor:

Stream happening.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

but yes, it's, it's a fairly And the deniers just wanted to throw

Trevor:

up their hands and say, well, that's all far too complicated.

Trevor:

You're making things up.

Trevor:

It can't be true.

Trevor:

Well, exactly.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

It's, it's frustrating that people look for the simple answers and aren't prepared

Trevor:

to put in the work just a little bit to try and understand how things go.

Trevor:

So anyway, Gina Reinhart.

Trevor:

She has interests in Liontown Resources and Arafura Rare Earths, and the

Trevor:

government has given Liontown Resources 230 million in government agency loans,

Trevor:

and Australian Rare Earths received 840 million in loans and straight

Trevor:

handouts to develop a lithium mine.

Trevor:

But she's going

Joe:

to hand it back because she's

Trevor:

a believer in small government.

Trevor:

That's right.

Trevor:

This is the woman who says government should get out of people's lives.

Trevor:

Except when it's an 840 million handout to her mine.

Trevor:

Why are we not, after all of our experience, saying, Yeah, okay,

Trevor:

developing a lithium mine's a great idea.

Trevor:

Here's our 840 million, how many shares do we get in the company for that?

Trevor:

Rather than these loans.

Trevor:

It's just a repetition of

Scott:

And then, you know, and then if, if that 840 million

Scott:

down the track turns out to be 1.

Scott:

6 billion, then we can sell it.

Scott:

Then we can sell those shares to the private markets.

Scott:

And then they end up with flooding with money back into our coffers.

Scott:

It's very frustrating that, you know, everyone, I know socialism got

Scott:

a bad rap over many years because the government was, you know,

Scott:

Too involved in the economy, but

Trevor:

it's

Scott:

not as evil as that would make out because that 840 million

Scott:

dollars could end up being 1.

Scott:

6 billion dollars in a relatively short period of time.

Scott:

However, with the rare earths and all that sort of stuff, you

Scott:

know, what was the latest miner that's gone belly up over lithium?

Scott:

Anyway,

Trevor:

yeah.

Trevor:

Not sure.

Joe:

the big thing with, capitalism is, externalities.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

so you don't factor in the true cost to the society as a whole, you're only,

Joe:

the business, it only costs, it counts in its immediate costs, and the clean

Joe:

up and all the rest of that is left for other people to pick up the bill.

Joe:

Exactly, which is ridiculous.

Joe:

A decent system of capitalism would factor in externalities as well.

Trevor:

Well, dear listener, Mariana Mazzucato wrote a book which detailed

Trevor:

the inventions made by various U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

government agencies and how that technology was then used by Apple and

Trevor:

other groups and really other sort of loans that were given to people like

Trevor:

Elon Musk and others, where really the government should have taken

Trevor:

an equity stake in what they were providing because it was risky, sort

Trevor:

of loans that they were given and they could have got it, but they didn't.

Trevor:

They just got, loans that were, they made loans which were quickly repaid and the

Trevor:

entrepreneurs made billions as a result.

Trevor:

This is

Joe:

also true of, science as a whole.

Joe:

So the vast majority of science is government funded, but all the

Joe:

papers that are written are published and owned by private journals.

Joe:

And so, although the government has funded the science that is leading to

Joe:

these articles, you can't access the articles that your taxes are paid for.

Trevor:

We did a section on that 300 episodes ago, I reckon it was.

Trevor:

I'm sure.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah, anyway, that was, Gina Reinhardt, a beneficiary of

Trevor:

Largesse from the government.

Trevor:

and of course, in the lead up to the next election, she will fund as many

Trevor:

people as she can to get rid of Labor.

Trevor:

So why would they agree to it in the first place?

Trevor:

She's not going to be a friend as a result.

Trevor:

Nah,

Scott:

she's, I've got a very low opinion of Mrs.

Trevor:

Reinhardt.

Trevor:

But it's, it's

Joe:

all right.

Joe:

Mr Potato Head flew across to WA for her birthday?

Trevor:

Yes, indeed, yes.

Trevor:

Didn't he pay

Scott:

for that

Joe:

or was that paid for by her?

Joe:

Allegedly, he paid for it.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Okay.

Joe:

Certainly he claims the taxpayer didn't, although I think the taxpayer

Joe:

had to pay for his security detail.

Trevor:

In the chat room, John says, I know a science YouTube

Trevor:

blogger that has been bedridden with long COVID for two years now.

Trevor:

Watley says Al Gore was saying that about the Gulf Stream in 1996.

Trevor:

Liam says, that's a spirit, Comrade Scott, I

Scott:

am not a socialist, alright?

Scott:

I, have some sympathy for it, though, but I am not a card carrying socialist.

Trevor:

And Motley says, Largesse is a good word for Gina Reinhardt.

Trevor:

Right, did I miss any from earlier?

Trevor:

Wotley's grateful for Pewter and Liam's grateful that Scott is a Greens voter.

Trevor:

Oh, there we go.

Trevor:

Hey, I've

Scott:

got a bone to pick with you, Liam.

Scott:

I will give you, I'll give Trevor permission to give you my phone

Scott:

number so I can have a go at you over the, Greens Lord Mayoral

Scott:

candidate down there in Brisbane.

Trevor:

What do you, what do you, what do you mean you want

Trevor:

to have a go at what, what was Sreenath, or whatever your name is?

Scott:

I can't remember what her name was.

Scott:

I just thought it was ridiculous how she actually attended that protest,

Scott:

over that woman that was being kicked out of her house, when they didn't

Scott:

actually look into it to find out that the woman owed, You know, a hundred days

Scott:

worth of rent or something like that.

Scott:

This is despite the fact that the tenant, that the tenant was being charged below

Scott:

market rate for rent and everything else.

Scott:

And the guy wanted to sell the place so that he could fund his 102 year

Scott:

old mother to go into a nursing home.

Scott:

And the Greens said, Oh, this, yeah, that sounds like the

Scott:

hill we're going to die on.

Trevor:

Yes, but property is theft, Scott.

Trevor:

Sorry.

Scott:

It's not theft because what they wanted to do, they were going to

Scott:

sell that Salisbury place to someone else that thinks to himself, Oh yeah,

Scott:

this is a thousand square metres, banging guys with their bulldozers

Scott:

and up goes a six or seven pack of

Trevor:

units.

Trevor:

Are you expecting perfection, Scott?

Scott:

Oh, I am.

Scott:

Because these people do hold themselves up as perfection and they are not.

Trevor:

Liam, in the chat, give us your response to that tirade.

Trevor:

We'll get that going as we keep talking.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

I can't see the chat right now.

Trevor:

Why can't you see the chat?

Trevor:

I don't know.

Trevor:

I don't know.

Trevor:

Any reason why?

Trevor:

Oh, it's not on the screen.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

It wasn't turned on.

Trevor:

I don't know why.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Forgot all about that.

Trevor:

There we go.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

But.

Trevor:

There we go, there's the chat.

Trevor:

Nobody told us about that, so.

Trevor:

Okay, now you can see it, Scott.

Trevor:

Thank you.

Trevor:

Yep, sorry about that.

Trevor:

Don't apologise, it's fine.

Trevor:

GST carve up, so it's come out about what each state is going to get, and Queensland

Trevor:

and New South Wales are complaining about the amount that they're getting.

Trevor:

You remember we did a story about Saul Eslake describing how Western

Trevor:

Australia cut a GST deal that, in his words, is the worst Australian public

Trevor:

policy decision of the 21st century.

Trevor:

Meaning it's worse than Orcus Submarines.

Trevor:

So that's saying something.

Trevor:

And anyway, Queensland, NSW complaining about how much they got.

Trevor:

Deputy Opposition Leader Jared Blayge says Queensland had been dutted

Trevor:

by the Federal Labor Government.

Trevor:

Why is Stephen Miles not screaming from the rooftop, like I've seen him do before,

Trevor:

when it was a Coalition Government?

Trevor:

It's because the formulas are all set previously,

Scott:

One of those things, I think they've actually got to sit down and work

Scott:

out some kind of formula that would keep them basically happy because, you know

Trevor:

The formula gets bastardized

Scott:

because of political interest.

Scott:

Bastardized by political interest, which is where it goes wrong.

Scott:

But, you know, I can understand why New South Wales feels aggrieved because they

Scott:

have never, they've never got one for one of the GST back that they put into it.

Scott:

I can understand that.

Scott:

However Tasmania would be an absolute basket case if you gave them only

Scott:

back what they had achieved for GST.

Scott:

You know?

Scott:

It's

Trevor:

We just want a fair and equitable system where those who are

Trevor:

doing well subsidise those who aren't.

Trevor:

And

Scott:

And then you've got that situation that WA was had to, you

Scott:

know, because of their mining boom and everything else, they had a hell of a

Scott:

lot of money go into their royalties.

Scott:

So that, that affected their, that affected their GST carve up, which

Scott:

is why Costella, not Costella, who was it, Morrison got involved

Scott:

and said, no, we can't do that.

Scott:

So

Trevor:

I think basically Western Australia almost got to the point where

Trevor:

it was getting 12 cents for every dollar of GST that it actually collected.

Trevor:

And then Morrison chipped in to say, well, we'll have a new rule that a

Trevor:

state must receive at least 70 cents, for every, dollar that it provides.

Trevor:

And, and then to keep the other states happy, there was a no state will

Trevor:

be worse off provision put into it.

Trevor:

And initially that was estimated to cost X billions of dollars.

Trevor:

And of course that's just blown out fivefold and it's now.

Trevor:

It's going to cost the budget a huge amount in terms of sending the

Trevor:

states more money than they actually collect because of that provision.

Trevor:

So I'm not exactly sure what happened in this particular case.

Trevor:

It seemed like Queensland and New South Wales had done

Trevor:

really well out of royalties.

Trevor:

And Victoria hadn't.

Trevor:

In any event, it's all very political, the formula, and shitfights to

Trevor:

continue down the track, as always.

Trevor:

I

Joe:

think they said Victoria had shut down a bunch of columns.

Trevor:

okay, so that's why their royalties depleted.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

That's why they needed particular assistance.

Trevor:

There you go.

Trevor:

Now, right, Joe, you sent me this one from the Financial Times.

Trevor:

Maybe Victoria's Sorry?

Scott:

Sorry, why'd Victoria shut down their column once?

Scott:

Was it Brown Call, though?

Trevor:

I

Joe:

think it's the aging power stations and the shutting

Trevor:

down.

Trevor:

Gotcha.

Trevor:

No worries.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Alright.

Trevor:

Liam says, he's not perfect, but no one is, and maybe he got that wrong.

Trevor:

I've no idea.

Trevor:

There we go.

Scott:

So Liam's not going to face me over the phone, huh?

Scott:

Well,

Trevor:

what's there to say?

Trevor:

Do you want to say any more than what you've just said?

Scott:

No, I don't think so.

Scott:

That's fine.

Trevor:

Saved everyone a phone call.

Trevor:

Ideological differences.

Trevor:

This one came from Joe from the article in the Financial Times, so how should

Trevor:

we make sense of reports that Gen Z is hyper progressive on certain issues,

Trevor:

but surprisingly conservative on others?

Trevor:

And I think Gen Z is supposed to be the under 30s.

Trevor:

The answer, in the words of Alice Evans from Stanford University, is

Trevor:

that Today's under 30s are undergoing a great gender divergence, with young

Trevor:

women, in the progressive camp and young men in the conservative camp.

Trevor:

So Gen Z is two generations, not one.

Trevor:

And she says this happens in countries on every continent,

Trevor:

that there's this ideological gap between young men and women.

Trevor:

In the U.

Trevor:

S., Gallup data shows women aged 18 to 30 are now 30 percent younger than men.

Trevor:

Or 30 percentage points more liberal than their male contemporaries,

Trevor:

and that this gap has really opened up in the last six years.

Trevor:

Germany shows a 30 point gap, UK 25 points, Poland, almost half the men

Trevor:

aged 18 to 21 back to the hard right confederation party, compared to just

Trevor:

a sixth of young women of the same age.

Trevor:

there's a graph, and outside the West there's even more stark divisions, South

Trevor:

Korea, similar to the case in China.

Trevor:

So, in the US, UK and Germany, young women now take far more

Trevor:

liberal positions on immigration and racial justice than young men.

Trevor:

There we go.

Trevor:

Any surprises there, gentlemen?

Trevor:

No, not at all.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Liam, are you our representative?

Trevor:

Well, you're not under 30, are you, Liam?

Trevor:

You're a bit older than that.

Trevor:

You might know some under 30s.

Trevor:

Do you find that the male Gen Z friends are conservative, more

Trevor:

conservative than your female friends.

Trevor:

Let us know, William, or anyone else.

Trevor:

They

Joe:

find that young men more impacted by the social justice causes

Joe:

and are more likely to react to

Trevor:

negative.

Trevor:

Is that because of, what's the word I'm groping for?

Trevor:

The, Jordan

Scott:

Peterson?

Scott:

Well, Jordan Peterson's probably part of it, but what was that

Scott:

guy, what was that, influencer

Trevor:

that, Oh, the guy's been arrested.

Trevor:

Yeah, the guy that's been arrested

Scott:

and is in a car.

Scott:

Oh, Andrew Tate.

Scott:

Andrew Tate, yeah.

Scott:

Is that

Trevor:

because of him?

Trevor:

No, they're all symptoms.

Joe:

So, the push for equality, there's an argument that basically, a lot of

Joe:

young men are feeling disaffected.

Joe:

talked down at, being held up as the reasons, they are

Joe:

guilty of the sins of the past.

Joe:

That sexism in the past, that, the inequality in, number of women

Joe:

in high paying positions has led to men being disproportionately,

Joe:

overlooked for any form of promotion or any form of career advancement.

Joe:

And I think there are a lot of angry young men because of that.

Trevor:

So Yeah, I could see that as a response in some ways.

Trevor:

I

Scott:

could see that as a response, but I don't think it's

Scott:

a particularly fair response.

Trevor:

Maybe

Joe:

not, but I think that's part of it.

Joe:

And a lot of the social justice is you're white, you're male, you're privileged.

Scott:

Yeah, I can, I can agree with that.

Scott:

That is a lot of that is coming across,

Trevor:

you know?

Joe:

And that's why I think it's, it's more men than women that are

Joe:

being picked up by the right wing.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Good thinking, Joe.

Trevor:

Probably right.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

Historically the left, the, yeah, as we've said, the, the left political left

Trevor:

has deserted the working class.

Trevor:

Absolutely.

Trevor:

They have.

Joe:

and I think this is why the right wing are picking up, and the women aren't

Joe:

so thrilled by it, because a lot of it is very much women should be in the kitchen,

Joe:

popping babies out one after the other.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Right, well, I've got a poll from Essential Poll, and looking at

Trevor:

Australia's role in global affairs, so.

Trevor:

Which of the following is closest to your view on what Australia's

Trevor:

role should be in global affairs?

Trevor:

And, first option was, primarily an ally of the US.

Trevor:

The second option was an independent middle power.

Trevor:

Third was the Australia should not engage in world affairs, and

Trevor:

the fourth option was unsure.

Trevor:

And, so, the conservative position would be, I would have thought,

Trevor:

primarily an ally of the US.

Trevor:

And, in terms of age, It's not that much difference.

Trevor:

Well, the 18 34s It's

Scott:

24%, but you know, at 55 plus, you're now at 19%, 5 percent difference.

Trevor:

Yeah, I would have expected a bigger amount of the older people.

Trevor:

Yeah, exactly.

Trevor:

There was a surprising number of younger people to be more willing to

Trevor:

see Australia as an ally of the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

than older people.

Trevor:

That kind of surprised me.

Trevor:

What is

Scott:

very comforting about this is that you've got the, you know, the

Scott:

independent middle power, you know, they've come up there at 34 percent on

Scott:

the 18 to 35, 34, 32 percent of the 35 to 54, and then 48 percent of the 55s plus.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

So anyway, so a surprising number of young people willing to see Australia as an ally

Trevor:

of the U S and then, in terms of gender, males 26 percent wanting to see Australia

Trevor:

as an ally of the US, female only 14%.

Trevor:

So that's all ages, but definitely a more of a male thing to be

Trevor:

putting those two together.

Trevor:

Male and young more likely to take the conservative, what I would have

Trevor:

thought is the conservative approach of seeing Australia as an ally of

Trevor:

the US rather than independent.

Trevor:

Anyway.

Trevor:

still on Essential Poll, looking at Australia's relationship with China.

Trevor:

And seeing it as a positive opportunity, seeing it as a complex relationship to

Trevor:

be managed and seeing it as a threat.

Trevor:

And 67% said it's complicated to be managed, 20%.

Trevor:

said it's a threat.

Trevor:

And is that 20, 13%, 87%.

Trevor:

13 said it is an opportunity that's sort of overall.

Trevor:

But looking by gender, males were more likely to see it as a threat,

Trevor:

16%, as opposed to females, 10%.

Trevor:

So it's views on our relationship with China, that males see it

Trevor:

more as a threat than females do.

Trevor:

And this one.

Trevor:

this is all Australian by the way, Views on Israel's military action in Gaza,

Trevor:

which of the following is closest to your view on Israel's military action in Gaza?

Trevor:

first one, Israel is justified in its military action.

Trevor:

Second, Israel should agree to a temporary ceasefire.

Trevor:

Third option was Israel should permanently withdraw.

Trevor:

Fourth option was unsure.

Trevor:

And finally, 18 percent of Australians think Israel is justified in

Trevor:

continuing its military action.

Trevor:

20 percent say they should cease fire temporarily.

Trevor:

And 37 percent say withdraw permanently.

Trevor:

18 percent go ahead Israel, do what you're doing.

Trevor:

Have these people know.

Trevor:

I

Scott:

just don't think they give a shit, do they,

Trevor:

you know?

Trevor:

Yeah, you know, I'm gonna have to, I've got slight reading,

Trevor:

I've got a problem with my eyes.

Trevor:

Well.

Trevor:

I can read a book fine.

Trevor:

I can see in the distance fine.

Trevor:

Arm's length where a computer screen is, is where I'm just struggling a fraction.

Trevor:

Just so I can see what I, these graphs.

Trevor:

break that down by gender and males, 26 percent are saying, go ahead Israel, keep

Trevor:

doing what you're doing, it's justified.

Trevor:

Whereas only 11 percent of females would say the same thing.

Trevor:

So those.

Trevor:

Those three issues definitely show significant gender differences, I

Trevor:

think, in the way Australians think.

Trevor:

Which is kind of in line, Joe, with the previous article saying

Trevor:

that, at least in Gen Z, women more likely to be progressive, men

Trevor:

more likely to be conservative.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

So, yep.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

Do you guys remember how the Pharmacy Guild was really upset when the

Trevor:

government allowed 60 day prescriptions?

Trevor:

So rather than having to get a script, for 30 days, you could get a 60 day

Trevor:

script and it was just, they'd be ruined?

Trevor:

Well, reports have come out that, 87 new pharmacies have started up, since, 2011.

Trevor:

That change took place, which is a 50 percent uptick from

Trevor:

the same time last year.

Trevor:

So, presumably, not the problem that the Pharmacy Guild was suggesting

Trevor:

it would be, if, it's actually a huge uptick in pharmacies compared

Trevor:

to the same time last year.

Joe:

Well, I'd like to see a longer period of time than just one year,

Trevor:

but yes.

Trevor:

There we go.

Trevor:

We're rattling through some topics here on our way to TikTok, There's a

Trevor:

Nobel laureate economist, Angus Deaton, has delivered a rebuke to his own

Trevor:

profession, what are his credentials?

Trevor:

He's an economic doyen from central casting, a bow tie wearing

Trevor:

econometrician, PhD at Cambridge.

Trevor:

He's been at Princeton for 40 years.

Trevor:

He's currently the Eisenhower Professor of Economics and

Trevor:

International Affairs Emeritus.

Trevor:

He won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 2015.

Trevor:

And according to this article in Crikey, he's just dropped an almighty bucket

Trevor:

of shit on his entire profession.

Trevor:

So he lobs a bunch of truth bombs, saying that he's had a changing

Trevor:

of his mind about economics.

Trevor:

That he's practiced for over half a century and largely he was saying that

Trevor:

we've stopped in economics thinking about ethics and what constitutes human

Trevor:

well being and that if economists just focus on efficiency and leave equity to

Trevor:

others, then our recommendations become little more than a license for plunder.

Trevor:

And he says historians who understand about contingency and multiple

Trevor:

and multi directional causality.

Trevor:

Who's that?

Trevor:

What's that noise there?

Trevor:

That's me.

Trevor:

Rhymey.

Trevor:

Oh, right.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

wow, that's bucketing down.

Trevor:

It is, yeah, but it'll stop very shortly.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

where are we?

Trevor:

Yes, you've just moved, that's good.

Trevor:

historians who understand about contingency and multiple and

Trevor:

multi direction causality often do a better job than economists.

Trevor:

And, he talks about the shame that unions have disappeared because they contributed

Trevor:

to a Wages Share for Working People.

Trevor:

But his main point, is about power.

Trevor:

He says, Our emphasis on the virtues of free competitive markets and exogenous

Trevor:

technical change can distract us from the importance of power in setting prices

Trevor:

and wages, in choosing the direction of technological change and in influencing

Trevor:

politics to change the rules of the game.

Trevor:

So this economist has suddenly discovered, power, and as Bernard

Trevor:

Keane in Crikey says, Deaton has only belatedly realised modern capitalism,

Trevor:

particularly in its neoliberal form that disempowers governments and rivals

Trevor:

like trade unions, is about the use of power by corporations to change the

Trevor:

rules of the game, to increase certainty for themselves and to reduce it for

Trevor:

competitors, workers and consumers.

Trevor:

It speaks volumes about how sheltered many mainstream academic economists really are.

Trevor:

So yeah, a Nobel laureate for economics dropping the almighty bucket of shit on

Trevor:

his profession saying they haven't taken into account power imbalance enough.

Trevor:

I just hear the name and think of

Joe:

the presenter of Have I Got News For You in the

Trevor:

UK.

Trevor:

Angus Deaton, is that his name?

Trevor:

Yes.

Joe:

Who got into trouble for his, frequenting of prostitutes and use

Trevor:

of cocaine, I think was the Well.

Trevor:

Because I've been saying for a while now that economics is just this dark

Trevor:

art, rather than a true science, and it's been dressed up with science.

Trevor:

Mathematical models to try and make something science y out of it.

Trevor:

But, they've really got some fundamental things wrong in economics.

Trevor:

And the experiments have been run and people are now starting to realise,

Trevor:

what a shitty sort of advice we've been getting from economists on the

Trevor:

whole over the last hundred odd years.

Trevor:

We should all go to school especially.

Trevor:

Yeah, exactly.

Trevor:

So There's a lot of myth busting to happen with economics, I think, so Certainly

Joe:

in terms of power, there's been arguments that Alphabet and Apple,

Joe:

who are two of the largest, they have economies that are bigger than

Joe:

two thirds of the world's countries.

Joe:

And obviously they have a unnatural effect in terms of international affairs as an

Joe:

international You know, just, just the sheer amount of money that they could

Joe:

make or break a, make or break a country.

Trevor:

Yep.

Trevor:

And just the fundamental need for young economies need protections and

Trevor:

artificial protectionism in order to nurture new industries and, to

Trevor:

keep multinational competitors out while they get a, a manufacturing

Trevor:

or an industrial economy going.

Trevor:

And it's.

Trevor:

That's one of the most fundamental misunderstandings people have, that

Trevor:

they think, Oh, you just need to open up these third world economies to allow

Trevor:

them, you know, to, to enter the free market and allow the free market to enter

Trevor:

them and, and efficiencies will develop.

Trevor:

America was in successful countries that were built on Initial protectionism that

Trevor:

they could get their industries underway.

Trevor:

And then once they were underway, they were like, Oh, well, we should be opening

Trevor:

up to the entire world because they've got, they've got the scale by then.

Trevor:

If you actually.

Scott:

I sort of disagree with what you're saying there, because if you

Scott:

actually allow them to lock themselves away from the international market and

Scott:

that type of thing, is it for a temporary period or is that for a longer period?

Scott:

As

Trevor:

long as necessary for the industry to gain control.

Trevor:

It's foothold and it's expertise.

Trevor:

Okay,

Scott:

so Australia, when should we have dropped our manufacturing, when should

Scott:

we have dropped our manufacturing tariffs on our clothing and textile industry?

Trevor:

Well if we wanted to keep, if the plan was to keep that industry

Trevor:

and develop it in a way that we could eventually be competitive on

Trevor:

the world stage, however long that takes, but that was never the plan.

Trevor:

And what you're looking at there is Australia was an advanced economy

Trevor:

that moved into service delivery and abandoned manufacturing.

Trevor:

But thinking of places like Latin America, where they're essentially

Trevor:

agricultural, economies who might want to develop a manufacturing base, start

Trevor:

making washing machines or cars or something, you can't run those industries

Trevor:

while multinationals can import cheap.

Trevor:

Product you have to give that protection while that local industry develops

Trevor:

expertise And then once they've got the expertise they can compete

Trevor:

which is exactly what China did.

Scott:

Yeah, okay Yeah If we just take the example of China and Mexico right

Scott:

now because Donald Trump has already threatened That if he's elected and

Scott:

that sort of stuff, he was he will slap a 100% tariff on Chinese cars

Scott:

that are manufactured in Mexico before they cross the border into the U.

Scott:

S.

Scott:

Now, I don't understand what Mexico could have done to avoid that type of

Scott:

thing, because they have followed the rules, they have done exactly what

Scott:

they've been told, they have developed a manufacturing industry down there, and

Scott:

now they're exporting stuff to the U.

Scott:

S.

Trevor:

Well, what's happened is that the US banned Chinese or put

Trevor:

on huge tariffs on Chinese imports.

Trevor:

Yeah, I understand and so Mexico has become a backdoor for Chinese trade So

Trevor:

when you look at the graphs of Chinese trade into America on the face of it,

Trevor:

it's dropped But if you then take into account the increase that's gone through

Trevor:

via Mexico, it's clearly been operating as a backdoor for Chinese imports.

Trevor:

Do you support Donald

Scott:

Trump as he's saying he wants to slap a 100 percent tariff on those cars?

Scott:

Like he wants, he wants, he wants the BYD car and that sort of stuff,

Scott:

because that is what's scaring the shit out of the American car

Trevor:

manufacturers right now, is

Scott:

because that BYD is talking about producing a car.

Scott:

In Mexico, and then they're going to sell it over in the U.

Scott:

S.

Scott:

for around about 25,

Trevor:

000.

Trevor:

Which is significantly

Scott:

lower than what a

Trevor:

Tesla is selling for.

Trevor:

I don't understand.

Trevor:

If any country wants to put in a tariff regime to protect an industry that it sees

Trevor:

as vital to its interests, go right ahead.

Trevor:

But don't complain when other countries do it as well.

Trevor:

That's the, that isn't the point.

Scott:

This is the whole bloody problem.

Scott:

If you get into a trade war and that sort of stuff that, you know, everyone's

Scott:

just slapping tariffs on and it's

Joe:

So, the reason you might want to keep a manufacturing base up is in case of war.

Trevor:

Or pandemic.

Trevor:

When you can't make a ventilator.

Trevor:

And you can't transport it.

Trevor:

We couldn't make ventilators.

Trevor:

If we had some manufacturing capacity, it would be We might have been able to

Scott:

say Yeah, okay, I can understand that.

Scott:

I can understand that you're going to have, you know, that sort of

Scott:

thing is that it's a very specialised piece of equipment, that type of

Scott:

thing, it's just, I think you could actually argue that that's got to be

Trevor:

protected over here.

Trevor:

But,

Scott:

I'm not so convinced that the car industry deserves protection.

Joe:

Well, and the argument was, during the Second World War,

Joe:

The car manufacturers turned their hands to producing, tanks.

Joe:

Well, we didn't have, we didn't, we didn't have a company in Australia.

Joe:

The reason, the reason why U S and Europe wants to, and not have it shipped all

Joe:

off to China, for instance, is that in the case of a war, sure, you've got your,

Joe:

whatever stock of tanks now, but if you needed to ramp up and do what the Russians

Joe:

did in the second world war, we just don't have the, Capability of doing that.

Trevor:

If, if you demand free trade, then you're essentially,

Trevor:

making it easy for the existing powerful players to remain powerful.

Trevor:

'cause they can just come in and squash any newcomers before they get, get going.

Trevor:

So protectionism is fine if, if your ultimate game is to protect

Trevor:

the industry until it becomes.

Trevor:

Efficient enough to compete, or even if it doesn't become efficient enough

Trevor:

to compete, but in the national interests, you think you need a

Trevor:

subsidized manufacturing industry, for example, that just for your balance of

Trevor:

your economy and security, for cause of war or pandemic or other things.

Trevor:

You need, to keep certain industries and you're prepared to pay the subsidies.

Trevor:

So just the sort of freedom of movement of global international goods is great

Trevor:

when you're the powerful dominant player, who goes around squashing

Trevor:

people, which is what's been happening.

Trevor:

I mean, that's what the IMF and the World Bank did to so many developed,

Trevor:

well, developing countries, third world countries in the South.

Trevor:

It's it.

Trevor:

Here's a loan, but the condition is you've got to allow outside entrants to come

Trevor:

in and sell whatever into your country.

Trevor:

You're really good at making, at growing bananas, so you keep

Trevor:

growing bananas and leave washing machines and cars to other countries.

Trevor:

End.

Trevor:

That's why they never got, manufacturing industries.

Trevor:

And countries like America did exactly that.

Trevor:

They, they put in tariffs and restrictions to, to protect their

Trevor:

infant industries until they got big enough that they didn't need it.

Trevor:

That's the story of economics.

Scott:

Yeah, I know, that's the history lesson of it, but I just don't think that,

Scott:

you can say to any emerging economy and that sort of stuff that you can protect

Scott:

your industries right now, and then in 10 or 20 years time you've got to wind

Scott:

back your tariffs because I just think to myself that they're not going to bother.

Scott:

Because once they've got, once they've got their manufacturing and everything up, and

Scott:

they're employing the numbers of people that are required for that type of thing,

Scott:

I just don't think that they're going to be interested in lowering their tariff

Trevor:

barriers.

Trevor:

Well, but

Joe:

if they want to export.

Joe:

Sorry?

Joe:

If they want to export.

Joe:

So you build up your manufacturing base, and you've tapped out your national base.

Joe:

market and you want to expand overseas, then you start

Joe:

doing, you know, tit for tat.

Joe:

If I want to export to the US, which is a huge market, then I

Joe:

have to, you know, allow traffic in

Trevor:

reverse.

Trevor:

So other countries will say, no, not mailing your goods in because

Trevor:

you've got these tariffs here.

Trevor:

So at some point the country goes, well, we're just going to pay that

Trevor:

price because It's in our interests, or it becomes politically unsavoury.

Trevor:

So Australia made the decision.

Trevor:

We didn't want to subsidise a clothing manufacturing industry.

Trevor:

There wasn't the will to do it.

Trevor:

So we let it go.

Trevor:

There we go.

Trevor:

I'm sure in this article, let me just find it here.

Trevor:

We just talked about this Nobel Laureate, ta ta ta ta, talked about

Trevor:

multi nationals, can't find it, anyway, and just finally, still from Crikey,

Trevor:

the Reserve Bank trashed the economy, and for what, and basically, that.

Trevor:

Yesterday's, well now this must be an old article, the December quarter national

Trevor:

accounts from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, so from the ABS, information

Trevor:

came out to say that in December, quarter on quarter growth was just 0.

Trevor:

2%, in per capita terms the economy contracted by 0.

Trevor:

8 percent in the December quarter.

Trevor:

Bullock and the RBA board had made a call, to increase interest rates.

Trevor:

At the time, retail sales were up 1.

Trevor:

5 percent in November.

Trevor:

But the ABS said that's because consumers are feeling the stress and they're taking

Trevor:

advantage of discounting by retailers during Black Friday and other events.

Trevor:

It's not because it's a buoyant economy, it's because shoppers

Trevor:

are getting in early on discounts.

Trevor:

And that's why sales were up 1.

Trevor:

5 percent in November, which the Reserve Bank took for a buoyant economy that

Trevor:

needed a further whack around the head.

Trevor:

And and in fact what happened was sales slid 2.

Trevor:

1 percent in the normally buoyant month of December.

Trevor:

And, as I said in the Crikey article, it's a pretty sorry state of affairs

Trevor:

when the country's statisticians The Australian Bureau of Statistics can see

Trevor:

what's happening to an important area of household spending while the so called

Trevor:

premier economic analysts at the Reserve Bank make desperate consumers, a mistake.

Trevor:

Desperate consumers for an overheating economy.

Trevor:

Sorry, what's that Joe?

Trevor:

I'm waiting for

Joe:

them to say, well, this is a per capita problem.

Joe:

And so we just need to do some decapitation and

Trevor:

solve the problem.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

That's probably what they'd come out with.

Trevor:

So, so just.

Trevor:

Hopeless at the RBA, people buying up in, the ABS proves that it was people

Trevor:

buying in November because they were broke, getting something cheap, and

Trevor:

the RBA took that for a buoyant economy that needed a whack around the head.

Trevor:

And our stupid treasurer, Jim Chalmers, wanted to get rid of those,

Trevor:

the reserve power that allowed the government in emergencies to override

Trevor:

the Reserve Bank on monetary policy.

Trevor:

For God's sake, just, oh, for God's sake.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

8.

Trevor:

59.

Trevor:

We've gone an hour and we're only just getting to TikTok.

Trevor:

Well, it's going to be a long one.

Trevor:

Ah.

Trevor:

I find this TikTok thing to basically encapsulate the

Trevor:

world we're in at the moment.

Trevor:

So let, anybody got to go anywhere?

Trevor:

You're reaching for a second beer there, Scott, are you?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Settle in.

Trevor:

Let me find a video to set the scene for the TikTok fiasco.

Trevor:

This, dear listener, is, who is this lady, Ashley Hinson, Republican, proud mum

Trevor:

and wife representing Iowa in Congress.

Trevor:

And she's bringing a dose of Iowa common sense to Washington.

Trevor:

That's how she describes herself in her Twitter profile, so.

Trevor:

Let's, see the mood amongst congressmen and women in America when it comes to

Trevor:

TikTok and your average person in Iowa.

Trevor:

Well hi everyone, this is your congresswoman, Ashley Hinson.

Trevor:

As a mom of two boys in middle school, I understand the challenges

Trevor:

surrounding kids social media use.

Trevor:

And as a member of Congress, I can tell you that TikTok is a Chinese Trojan

Trevor:

horse used to steal Americans data.

Trevor:

It's used to control the narrative on key issues in our country and

Trevor:

to hurt our kids mental health.

Trevor:

So that's why I helped to introduce legislation that would force TikTok

Trevor:

to cut ties with its parent company.

Trevor:

By Dance, a company that is beholden to China.

Trevor:

They'd have to do this in order to keep operating in the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

Now, as many of you have heard, TikTok is spreading a lot of misinformation.

Trevor:

They're telling users that we in Congress are going to ban TikTok.

Trevor:

They took it way too far last week by sending out a push alert

Trevor:

to young kids, prompting pure panic about the app's future.

Trevor:

So let me set the record straight.

Trevor:

We are working in Congress to pass legislation to protect your privacy.

Trevor:

Protect our national security.

Trevor:

and to keep your phone safe from hacks.

Trevor:

We are working to ensure that China does not control the content that you see.

Trevor:

TikTok wants you to think they get you, but they're working hard to control

Trevor:

you and to control what you think.

Trevor:

ByteDance, which is TikTok's parent company, is tracking your

Trevor:

keystrokes, your passwords, and your phone activity to advance China's

Trevor:

intelligence and influence in the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

So think about it like a Chinese spy balloon right in your phone.

Trevor:

It's pretty simple.

Trevor:

All TikTok has to do is to sever ties with China to keep their American users.

Trevor:

So I am proud to lead this effort and will continue working to ensure that China

Trevor:

cannot exert control over our country or continue hurting our kids through TikTok.

Trevor:

The time is up for this Chinese spyware.

Trevor:

There you go.

Trevor:

It's just like a Chinese spy balloon.

Trevor:

Guys, and what did we find out about Chinese spy balloons?

Trevor:

They definitely exist, but they weren't spying on anything.

Trevor:

It was a complete beat up to say that this is just like the Chinese spy balloon.

Trevor:

That was the only thing she said that was That was correct.

Trevor:

That was the only thing that, and she, it is exactly like a

Scott:

Chinese spy balloon.

Scott:

Yeah, I

Trevor:

understand that.

Trevor:

Complete bullshit.

Scott:

The Chinese spy balloon was shot down by the Yanks and that sort

Scott:

of stuff, and I agreed wholeheartedly with them because something blew off

Scott:

course and all that sort of stuff.

Scott:

It invaded U.

Scott:

S.

Scott:

airspace, so they had to

Trevor:

take it out, so they shot it down.

Trevor:

It accidentally crossed U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

airspace.

Trevor:

Yeah, I know.

Trevor:

It didn't invade U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

airspace.

Scott:

Okay, whatever, it accidentally found its way there, they had to shoot it

Scott:

down, so it was shot down, that was it.

Scott:

Now, the whole thing was, the Yanks were very secretive about it and

Scott:

all that sort of stuff, it made us, made them look like idiots, you

Scott:

know, because I think once, once you finally found out what was on the spy

Scott:

balloon, they found out it was nothing.

Trevor:

Which is what the case is when it comes to TikTok as well.

Trevor:

Yeah, I know.

Scott:

It's also like, you know, when I was listening to her nonsense

Scott:

where she said that, you know, They're in there stealing your

Scott:

passwords and all that sort of shit.

Scott:

I just thought to myself, Jesus

Trevor:

Christ, you know, this woman's a nut.

Trevor:

Mm hmm.

Trevor:

That's one of the few things that Congress has agreed on

Trevor:

very quickly in recent times.

Trevor:

Yeah, I know.

Trevor:

So, they've come together.

Trevor:

She's a nut.

Trevor:

Well, to, to

Scott:

no to to pass legislation, to actually pass legislation to be in TikTok,

Trevor:

to, for the change of ownership of TikTok.

Trevor:

Otherwise, it's not allowed to operate in.

Trevor:

So, Yeah, cause they're

Joe:

concerned that, Facebook is losing market

Trevor:

share.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Well, well, it's this McCarthyism of, you know, red's under the bed, you

Trevor:

know, Chinese under your, in your phone.

Trevor:

Is white dead

Scott:

earned by the Chinese government or not?

Trevor:

Well, we're going to get to that.

Trevor:

So, well, let me actually give you the exact bit on that.

Trevor:

So.

Trevor:

so this is according to the TikTok website, but I think we can take this

Trevor:

sort of factual information as being true.

Trevor:

So myth, TikTok's parent company ByteDance is Chinese owned, and they say fact,

Trevor:

TikTok's parent company ByteDance was founded by Chinese entrepreneurs, but

Trevor:

today roughly 60 percent of the company.

Trevor:

is owned by global institutional investors, such as the Carlyle

Trevor:

Group, General Atlantic, and Susquehanna International Group.

Trevor:

So 60 percent international.

Trevor:

An additional 20 percent of the company is owned by ByteDance employees around

Trevor:

the world, including Australians.

Trevor:

And the remaining 20 percent is owned by the company's founder,

Trevor:

who is a private individual.

Trevor:

It is not part of any state or government entity.

Trevor:

So, the parent company ByteDance owns Well, and TikTok doesn't

Trevor:

operate in mainland China.

Trevor:

there's a different, software, I'll get to the name of it in a second, which, which

Trevor:

they control, but which runs in China.

Trevor:

No, that's WeChat, isn't it?

Trevor:

no, it is, let me just see here.

Trevor:

It is Douyin, D O U Y I N.

Trevor:

So that's the Chinese version of TikTok.

Trevor:

And, So no TikTok in China.

Trevor:

Instead, they're using, ion and the Chinese government owns 1% of ion.

Trevor:

That's what it owns.

Trevor:

So for by dance itself, that owns TikTok.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

60% international, 20% employees, 20%.

Trevor:

The original Chinese founder, it owns, by dance, owns Doyon.

Trevor:

And the Chinese government owns 1%.

Trevor:

And it does that because, if you have a media organisation in China,

Trevor:

then the government by law has to own 1 percent as part of the media.

Trevor:

Wikipedia says this is a golden share,

Joe:

which allows it to outvote everybody

Trevor:

else on the board.

Trevor:

And in Douyin or in ByteDance?

Trevor:

In ByteDance.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

And that, is a myth.

Trevor:

So, let me just see what they say here.

Trevor:

So, myth.

Trevor:

The Chinese government has a golden share interest in ByteDance.

Trevor:

And the fact.

Trevor:

As required under Chinese law, in order to operate certain news

Trevor:

and information products that are exclusively in China, media license

Trevor:

is required for those services.

Trevor:

As such, an entity affiliated with the Chinese government owns 1 percent of

Trevor:

the ByteDance subsidiary, ByteDance.

Trevor:

com.

Trevor:

and it says this is a common arrangement for companies operating news and

Trevor:

information platforms in China.

Trevor:

This arrangement is specific to services in the Chinese market and has no bearing

Trevor:

on ByteDance's global operations outside of China, including TikTok, which

Trevor:

does not operate in mainly in China.

Trevor:

So

Trevor:

who do we believe, Wikipedia or the TikTok

Joe:

company that possibly has an interest in telling you?

Trevor:

But the author of the Wikipedia article, who do we know?

Trevor:

Wikipedia has to

Joe:

reference, so it references a Reuters article

Trevor:

and a couple of others.

Trevor:

You could probably jump onto Wikipedia and write the contrary

Trevor:

article based on the reference to TikTok's own public statements.

Trevor:

Sorry.

Trevor:

I'm prepared to go with the TikTok version, but we'll, we'll see.

Trevor:

So, that gives you a little picture anyway.

Trevor:

TikTok is the non Chinese version.

Trevor:

Douyin is the Chinese version.

Trevor:

And, this guy on TikTok, on Twitter, Brendan Carr, was saying, In America,

Trevor:

TikTok pushes videos to kids that promote self harm, eating disorders and suicide.

Trevor:

In China The version of TikTok available there.

Trevor:

The app shows young kids science experiments, museum exhibits,

Trevor:

and other educational material.

Trevor:

And a guy I follow a lot on Chinese stuff is Arnaud Bertrand,

Trevor:

and he says, this is false.

Trevor:

There's been lots of scandals in China about Douyin, the Chinese version of

Trevor:

TikTok, and the harm it did to kids, including a scandal about a famous

Trevor:

influencer who live streamed her suicide, and a scandal about, eating disorders.

Trevor:

Which is why contrary to the US, the Chinese government legislated Douyin,

Trevor:

and put in all sorts of limitations in terms of content, moderation, number

Trevor:

of hours, kids could be on it, etc.

Trevor:

TikTok in the US, it's down to the US legislators.

Trevor:

If they wanted to, US legislators could, implement the exact rules as China.

Trevor:

There'd be absolutely nothing that prevents them to do so.

Trevor:

In fact, TikTok was created for this very reason, because the mother company

Trevor:

ByteDance knew that given the ecosystems and culture in China and the rest of

Trevor:

the world were so completely different, you simply could not have the same app.

Trevor:

So Douyin was to be regulated by the Chinese government and

Trevor:

adapted to Chinese citizens.

Trevor:

TikTok was to be regulated by the West and adapted to their citizens.

Trevor:

And he says it's not China's fault if the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

doesn't.

Trevor:

Doesn't take their regulation job seriously.

Trevor:

So Joe, when it comes to like the, the golden share that allows China to do

Trevor:

whatever it wants, China, Chinese company can do whatever it wants with, with

Trevor:

a company in China, anyway, without a share, like they can just, they can just

Trevor:

say, you're going to do this, even if they don't even own a share, they don't

Trevor:

need it for things that happen in China.

Trevor:

U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

government do the same in the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

Yeah, so the sort of, the idea of, you know, this golden share is kind of a

Trevor:

bit, red herring, if you like, because we're talking about power, and when it

Trevor:

comes to things happening in China, the Chinese government can do whatever they

Trevor:

like, golden share or not, in terms of regulating what companies do in

Joe:

China.

Joe:

Yeah, the question is, do they have control over the power

Trevor:

of the company?

Trevor:

And, If the parent company's operations are outside of China, then you'd have

Trevor:

to say that would be difficult to do.

Trevor:

So Yes, but if, if

Joe:

the board operate, because the head office is in China.

Trevor:

No, it's not.

Trevor:

So if the board are in China No, it's not.

Trevor:

So the head office is in, Singapore.

Trevor:

Singapore.

Trevor:

Is it?

Trevor:

yeah.

Trevor:

So the CEO is, he's Singaporean.

Trevor:

Yep.

Trevor:

So it's got, it's established in Los Angeles and Singapore, so, Just

Trevor:

a few more bits about, ByteDance, well actually let me just go back

Trevor:

to, we're still talking about image, that sort of stuff, Decisions, myth,

Trevor:

decisions about TikTok are made in Beijing, and here's their response.

Trevor:

ByteDance.

Trevor:

TikTok's CEO is a third generation Singaporean based in Singapore.

Trevor:

He oversees all key day to day and strategic decision

Trevor:

making when it comes to TikTok.

Trevor:

The COO, Guy Pappas is an Australian based in the United States.

Trevor:

He oversees content, operations, marketing and product teams for TikTok.

Trevor:

The senior leadership team is based in Singapore, the United States and Ireland.

Trevor:

as we expected with any subsidiary of a holding company, high level

Trevor:

discussions around financial matters and corporate governance are made in

Trevor:

concert with ByteDance board and the CEO.

Trevor:

None of those individuals reside in mainland China.

Trevor:

So, what they say here is it's an entertainment app.

Trevor:

The content of TikTok is generated by the community.

Trevor:

So, it's up to the community to generate the content.

Trevor:

And the secret source of TikTok is, of course, the algorithm that,

Trevor:

keeps people in there watching it.

Trevor:

And, it says here, there are no TikTok content moderators in China.

Trevor:

Content moderation on TikTok is overseen by our Singapore, US and

Trevor:

Ireland led trust and safety teams.

Trevor:

it says, the myth that the Chinese government could compel ByteDance to

Trevor:

share Australian TikTok user data.

Trevor:

And it says Australian TikTok user data is stored in Singapore, Malaysia

Trevor:

and the US, subject to local laws.

Trevor:

TikTok does not store user data in China and has not shared Australian

Trevor:

user data with the Chinese government and would not even if it asked.

Trevor:

But apparently my understanding is, that the reason Facebook and Twitter

Trevor:

don't operate in China is because the Chinese said, we don't want you storing,

Trevor:

Chinese citizen data outside of China.

Trevor:

And Facebook and the rest refused.

Trevor:

So that's why they don't operate in China.

Trevor:

So the concerns that the West has, oh, the data is held in China and the

Trevor:

Chinese will get their hands on it and cause problem for our citizens.

Trevor:

Is wrong.

Trevor:

The data is not held in China.

Trevor:

That's the same concern that China had about Facebook.

Trevor:

interesting sort of switch up there.

Trevor:

So, ah, what else have we got here in the Myth vs.

Trevor:

Fact section?

Trevor:

uh, okay.

Trevor:

That was the main Myth vs.

Trevor:

Fact stuff.

Trevor:

Just on, you know, everything from China is a security threat.

Trevor:

There was an article from the New York Times.

Trevor:

Headline, Biden calls Chinese electric vehicles a security threat.

Trevor:

there's an article from the BBC.

Trevor:

Chinese garlic is a national security risk, says US Senator.

Trevor:

An article from the Wall Street Journal.

Trevor:

Pentagon sees giant cargo cranes as possible Chinese spying tools.

Trevor:

An article from, I can't read that one.

Trevor:

China may be spying on you through your coffee maker, expert says.

Trevor:

I think that's news.

Trevor:

New York Times.

Trevor:

Fearing spy trains, Congress may ban a Chinese maker of subway cars.

Trevor:

And of course we all know about the Chinese spy balloon.

Scott:

So.

Joe:

Well, in terms of the cars, I would be worried, I'm, I'm worried about Tesla.

Joe:

Apparently Tesla have shut down the cars of people who've been critical.

Joe:

Right.

Joe:

So there's been some really weird stuff going on.

Joe:

Basically, all these, modern cars phone home for every,

Joe:

electronic thing that they do.

Joe:

Right.

Joe:

I, I have a friend who works on, the integration piece of all, electronic,

Joe:

all the control systems, all the drive by wire systems, all go through.

Joe:

And he says all functions now literally phone back.

Joe:

To the main server, the, the manufacturer's server.

Joe:

Yep.

Joe:

for permission before they'll enable a module.

Joe:

Right.

Joe:

So you, you remember BMW famously were going to charge for heated seats.

Joe:

Well, you were gonna have to subscribe and pay so many dollars a year to have your

Trevor:

heated seats turned off.

Trevor:

Yes, I do.

Trevor:

Yes, we did that story.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe:

So.

Joe:

All new cars, basically every function that you press an electronic button

Joe:

on the dashboard, it phones home to find out whether you're allowed

Joe:

to do that before it'll do that.

Joe:

And all of these manufacturers, if they so choose, could turn off your car remote.

Joe:

And they're saying worse than that, if these cars are in an area where they have

Joe:

no mobile coverage and lose battery power, so they've lost their settings, When you

Joe:

power them back up and they can't phone home to find out whether you're allowed

Joe:

to do anything, the car won't even start.

Trevor:

See, there's an argument though, if you accept that, these social platforms

Trevor:

are going to collect all this data on you, if you want to use one and you're

Trevor:

American, you, you'd be better off using TikTok because the Chinese government

Trevor:

has no, control over you, whereas the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

government does.

Trevor:

So if, if, if they were all gathering data about you and you were worried

Trevor:

about them using it against you, you'd actually rather someone like the

Trevor:

Chinese have it than the Americans, because they've got no, jurisdiction

Trevor:

over you, if that makes sense.

Trevor:

just in terms of what they collect.

Trevor:

They say, TikTok's privacy policy describes the data the company collects.

Trevor:

To be clear, the current versions of TikTok app do not monitor

Trevor:

keystrokes or content of what people type when they use our in

Trevor:

app browser or third party websites.

Trevor:

and do not collect precise GPS location in Australia.

Trevor:

We only collect approximate location information to ensure a

Trevor:

relevant user experience including being served the right ads.

Trevor:

And that does not use face or voice prints to identify individuals.

Trevor:

I remember when we were talking about this, not so long ago, where TikTok

Trevor:

basically said to the authorities, Come and look at our software, come

Trevor:

and look under the hood, come and see that what we're saying is true.

Trevor:

We're just not going to let you look at the algorithm that determines how

Trevor:

Things show up in front of people.

Trevor:

But all this sort of stuff, you can look at our coding to

Trevor:

confirm what we're saying is true.

Trevor:

So, do you remember us talking about that or not?

Trevor:

Is that just my imagination?

Trevor:

I don't

Scott:

remember us talking about that.

Trevor:

I don't remember.

Trevor:

Yeah, anyway, I'll try and find that somewhere because

Trevor:

I'm sure we talked about that.

Trevor:

anyway, guess what opposition leader Peter Dutton wants to do?

Trevor:

He

Scott:

wants to ban TikTok in Australia just like the US does.

Scott:

He's a dickhead.

Trevor:

Correct, looking at hashtags on TikTok.

Trevor:

This was in a seven day period to December 22, 22nd of December, 2023.

Trevor:

so hashtags on TikTok.

Trevor:

The top, well, Free Palestine, 82 million.

Trevor:

Free Palestine with a love heart emoji and a Palestinian flag.

Trevor:

I'll then give you the next, sort of, most popular hashtags on the

Trevor:

topic of Palestine Gaza Israel.

Trevor:

Free Gaza, Free Palestine, Palestine TikTok, Save Gaza, Stand with

Trevor:

Palestine, I Stand with Palestine, From the River to the Sea, Save

Trevor:

Palestine, End the Occupation, Pray for Palestine, Palestine will be free.

Trevor:

They're all pro Palestinian.

Trevor:

The first hashtag that then comes up is I Stand with Israel,

Trevor:

with two million hashtags.

Trevor:

So, the views on something like Israel and Hamas on TikTok.

Trevor:

Tik Tok are very much pro Palestine, which might be a reason you think to

Trevor:

get rid of it from the US point of view.

Trevor:

But, apparently Facebook and Instagram show a remarkably similar

Trevor:

gap when it comes to their hashtags.

Trevor:

On Facebook, the hashtag free Palestine is found on more than 11 million

Trevor:

posts, 30 times, 39 times more than those with hashtag stand with Israel.

Trevor:

so that's interesting that, even the other ones are very pro

Trevor:

Palestine compared to Israel.

Trevor:

So tiktoks actually not that out of place.

Scott:

It's one of those things, I just think to myself that, this is what I was

Scott:

saying when I was last on here, when I said that, this is leading to a change

Scott:

of the opinion about Israel, you know, it's, I'm not surprised to read that,

Scott:

that you've got all these pro Palestinian hashtags, you know, from the river to

Scott:

the seas, the only one offends me, but, you know, all the rest of them are fine.

Scott:

Mm mm.

Trevor:

So, I read an article.

Trevor:

I'll have a look at the comments by people in a moment, but just,

Trevor:

last couple of things on this.

Trevor:

So, as you know, dear listener, one of the, pains I go through on your

Trevor:

behalf is to read the courier mail.

Trevor:

The courier fail, religiously.

Trevor:

If that's not worth signing up to the Patreon for, I don't know what is.

Trevor:

Do you get it

Scott:

delivered in paper or do you just grab it electronically?

Scott:

Just

Trevor:

digital, yeah.

Trevor:

Electronically, yeah.

Trevor:

So, this article from the Courier Mail, Clock is ticking to block TikTok,

Trevor:

and story about, you know, obviously the US decision, and um, now, Home

Trevor:

Affairs Minister, Claire O'Neill, in the government, she said, We're

Trevor:

monitoring the progress of the bill in the US and will take additional action

Trevor:

if and when relevant agencies advise us to It is appropriate to do so.

Trevor:

God's sake, Labor.

Trevor:

If some spook in ASIO says, Well, you better get rid of TikTok.

Trevor:

Are you going to just follow that advice?

Trevor:

Are you just going to think about it?

Trevor:

Of your own accord?

Trevor:

No, you're just going to take the advice.

Trevor:

I can tell that's what's going to happen.

Trevor:

But anyway, James Patterson, on the opposition's national security

Trevor:

spokesman, said Australia could not afford to be left behind on the issue.

Trevor:

It says that the Albanese government should be preparing legislation today.

Trevor:

Now in this article, it goes on, cyber security expert Susan McLean said

Trevor:

if the bill progresses in the US, Australia should follow suit, quote,

Trevor:

these decisions and the people that are presenting to Congress and the Pentagon

Trevor:

are whiz bang cyber security experts.

Trevor:

If the American government believes that TikTok is of national security concern.

Trevor:

Then we, as a friend of America, should realise if it is a risk.

Trevor:

If it is a risk in one Western country, then it is a risk in another country.

Trevor:

Dear listener, cyber security expert Susan McLean, when I read that, she's

Trevor:

quoted as saying, these people are whiz bang cyber security experts.

Trevor:

My antenna just went off.

Trevor:

Went off and I'm going, I'm not so sure about the credentials of Susan

Trevor:

McClain as a cyber security expert.

Trevor:

Anyway, she goes on, Australia would have to be mindful of its diplomatic

Trevor:

relations with China, but national security must remain the priority.

Trevor:

Quote, we are geographically closer to China, and we have to be mindful

Trevor:

of maintaining diplomatic relations, but if push comes to shove, if the

Trevor:

company is acting in a way that risks national security, Then that

Trevor:

should be the priority, she said.

Trevor:

And I'm just thinking to myself, who the fuck is this cyber

Trevor:

security expert, Susan McLean?

Trevor:

And a quick Google, and I'm on her website, she's got a website called Cyber

Trevor:

Safety Solutions, where she describes herself as Australia's foremost expert

Trevor:

in the area of cyber safety and was a member of Victoria Police for 27 years.

Trevor:

Widely known as the Cyber Cop, she was the first Victorian police officer

Trevor:

appointed to a position involving cyber safety and young people.

Trevor:

In 2003, she was the Victoria Police Regional Youth Officer of the Year.

Trevor:

She's been awarded the National Medal and the Victorian Police Service

Trevor:

Medal and the National Police Medal.

Trevor:

And in 1994, she took her first report of cyber bullying involving

Trevor:

a group of year eight school girls.

Trevor:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Trevor:

In short, dear listener, she's just dealt with.

Trevor:

Cyberbullying, children in high school and other stuff like that.

Trevor:

She doesn't

Joe:

understand the technology, she understands its impact in society.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

It's very, very

Trevor:

different.

Trevor:

Exactly.

Trevor:

And she's, on the face of what is on her website, knows nothing about the

Trevor:

topic that we're discussing here.

Trevor:

And she's quoted in the Courier Mail as cyber security expert,

Trevor:

giving her two cents worth.

Trevor:

That's it.

Trevor:

This is just the sort of crap that we have to deal with

Trevor:

every day from this There was a

Joe:

big story about the thousands of motherboards from

Joe:

China With a secret chip in bed.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Yeah

Trevor:

Yeah,

Joe:

I'm sorry.

Joe:

I went and looked that up because I remembered that story it turns out the

Joe:

manufacturer Had built this thing that would automatically download drivers

Joe:

to save you installing the manually So that your machine would automatically

Joe:

have the latest and greatest drivers and that if somebody nefarious had

Joe:

got into that supply path They could automatically push out Nasty software

Joe:

to your computer, but there was nothing in there was no physical thing on the

Trevor:

motherboard No evidence that it was that nefarious purpose.

Trevor:

It was there just as an aid to software updating It was a badly thought out

Joe:

aid

Trevor:

in terms of security.

Trevor:

R.

Trevor:

Not a yes.

Trevor:

It, it, it,

Joe:

it had been, misreported in one source and other sources

Joe:

had just copied and pasted.

Trevor:

Mm-Hmm.

Trevor:

Let's run through the comments, from the most recent going backwards.

Trevor:

Whatley.

Trevor:

Oh, whizbang.

Trevor:

Liam, China has actually done some great work in holding out

Trevor:

against the tech giants, which are anti-competitive and bad for innovation.

Trevor:

Indeed, they have.

Trevor:

John Salmon says the bill probably won't pass the courts.

Trevor:

Hmm, might be held unconstitutional.

Trevor:

James says we have our own James Patterson.

Trevor:

I think that's most of the comments on that.

Trevor:

Well, a year and a half.

Trevor:

This is like the old days, isn't it?

Trevor:

And I've still got a whole, I've got a whole section of subs.

Trevor:

Which I'll reserve for next week.

Joe:

I think we should ban all social media apart from things like

Trevor:

Mastodon.

Trevor:

Yeah, well, do we need to ban them?

Trevor:

Just let people use them and make up their own mind.

Trevor:

It's

Scott:

one of those things, like, you know, I was a very early

Scott:

adopter of Facebook, but now I'm just hardly ever using it.

Joe:

I looked on Facebook recently and I reckon of my news feed in quotes.

Joe:

30 percent is adverts, another 30 percent is news groups, is groups

Joe:

that I've never joined and it's just decided I'm interested in, and 30

Joe:

percent is stuff that I've actually

Trevor:

subscribed to.

Trevor:

Well dear listener, you're lucky you've subscribed to the Iron Fist Velvet Glove

Trevor:

podcast and you've received another 90 minutes of informed commentary.

Trevor:

Hope you've enjoyed it.

Trevor:

We'll speak to you next week, where we'll talk about subs, we'll talk

Trevor:

about Israel and Gaza, we'll talk about what the Pope says about Ukraine.

Trevor:

You might remember, dear listener, a few months ago, other guys here on this

Trevor:

podcast were saying But the counter offensive would sort things out and, I was

Scott:

calling No, what I actually said was that it's going to be slow

Scott:

going and we've got to see what actually is going to happen from that.

Scott:

Now, it appears that Russia has dug in a hell of a lot stronger than

Scott:

the Ukrainians were anticipating.

Scott:

And now that you've got this situation that the West is foundering

Scott:

on actually supporting Ukraine.

Scott:

So, I think that Vladimir Solinsky is going to be forced to go in and do a

Scott:

deal with that bastard, who will actually only use the time and that sort of stuff

Scott:

to build up his forces, and he's going to pinch the whole fucking country.

Scott:

Because he's a

Joe:

prick.

Joe:

Putin has said all along, all he had to do was outweigh the

Joe:

West, the West would get bored.

Joe:

Exactly.

Scott:

Which is what is happening, you know, and I just think to myself that

Trevor:

It's a very interesting moment in time, where we've had just

Trevor:

the US so dominant militarily, and just the idea that, you know, there's

Trevor:

other powers out there, and they can invade a country and get away with it.

Scott:

Ah, but they wouldn't have actually bought, they wouldn't

Scott:

have actually attempted that had there been a signatory to the NATO

Trevor:

treaty.

Trevor:

Maybe not.

Trevor:

But you know, there's just, there's just these challenges to US hegemony.

Trevor:

We've got, you know, the US.

Trevor:

You know, starts confiscating Iranian oil ships.

Trevor:

Well, Iran starts confiscating American oil ships, and you've got, there's a

Trevor:

lot of fight back to the idea of the U.

Trevor:

S.

Trevor:

hegemon, so.

Trevor:

it's interesting times and, and really, you know, a lot of US power or money

Trevor:

is tied up in naval power, which is extremely vulnerable, really expensive

Trevor:

missiles, which, you know, you sort of run out of quickly in terms of sort of

Trevor:

just tanks and artillery and stuff because they've been paying through the nose.

Trevor:

Overpriced for these defense contracts.

Trevor:

They haven't been getting the bang for their buck, even though they've

Trevor:

been spending so much money So the capacity to wage war isn't as great

Trevor:

as we might think it is But anyway, that is all for discussion next week

Trevor:

because an hour and a half is more than enough We'll talk to you then.

Trevor:

Bye for now.

Scott:

And it's a good night for me.

Scott:

And it's a good night for

Trevor:

him.

Trevor:

Good night

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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